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    Wrong type of meat??

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    nbloch64

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    Wrong type of meat??

    Post  nbloch64 on Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:33 am

    I have a large portion of top round beef to give the dogs once they have moved through their first week of pork. We are on the third week of raw feeding and doing very well. Is there a particular part of beef or pork that I should avoid purchasing due to fat content? The meat portions that we would not consider tasty or of good quality, but are still available for purchase - are those ok to give the dogs? I found a really good deal on beef stew meat already chopped up, but my friend said it was not good, tasty meat and I shouldn't feed the dogs that portion of the animal.
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    Giselle

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    Re: Wrong type of meat??

    Post  Giselle on Wed Jul 22, 2009 5:12 pm

    ROFL!

    Yes, any part of an animal is good for your dog!

    Each has its own nutrient profile and has a place in a species appropriate whole prey model feeding plan.

    Its people in the US that are picky!
    Picky, picky!
    Especially in this country - in many parts of the world tougher cuts, organs and even offal are considered Good Eats and are integral parts of their ethnic cuisine.
    Many of us have lost touch with our 'roots' and wouldn't even consider buying, let alone eating what our great grands considered good food, even if we knew how to cook them.
    Time was, a frugal 'homemaker' knew how to cook all the parts of an animal and make them tasty.

    Meat and fat are two of the main building blocks for a dog's diet, both are important.

    Check out the meats and parts listed in the USDA Nutrient Database;
    http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

    Beef, composite of trimmed retail cuts, separable lean and fat, trimmed to 1/8" fat, all grades, raw
    Refuse: 12% (Bone)
    NDB No: 13795 (Nutrient values and weights are for edible portion)
    Nutrient Units Value per 100 grams
    Proximates
    Water g 62.02
    Protein g 18.68
    Total lipid (fat) g 17.15
    These are just the first few nutrients, there are many vites and minerals and other nutrients listed for each cut, too.

    Your dog would get more benefits - physical, dental, mental and emotional, from wrestling/crunching larger parts, rather than just swallowing cut up bits.
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    nbloch64

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    All meat is good meat!

    Post  nbloch64 on Wed Jul 22, 2009 5:24 pm

    Thank you for the link and info. I am so protective when it comes to my dogs that I only want the very best for them, as I know everyone does that posts on these forums. I purchased some green tripe rolls and green tripe with organ rolls from Oma's Pride this morning and they also referred me to a local co-op that would be more cost effective. I have emailed them and am awaiting a response. I am starting to get into looking for meat deals now that they can move on to other protein sources and have to look at purchasing a separate freezer! I am glad that I don't have to be picky with the meat other than ensuring it is not enhanced and it is of good quality.

    I will cease the cutting up of the meat too. I wonder if that has anything to do with their energy levels being slightly lower overall - maybe it is being processed too quickly by their bodies? I know they are not being hyped up with all the additives in kibble, which helps to maintain a more healthy balance.

    Thank you,

    Nicole
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    Giselle

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    Re: Wrong type of meat??

    Post  Giselle on Wed Jul 22, 2009 5:48 pm

    You're not seeing lower energy levels - you're seeing their real, calm personalities emerging. I love you

    I've read many reports by raw feeders who have seen less frantic 'gotta keep busy' energy levels in their dogs. Even reduction in anxiety and boredom related destructiveness.

    Its the more optimum and bioavailable nutrients in raw, and the lack of chemicals, additives and non-species appropriate that are in kibble that allow a dog to just 'be' after eating.

    You may see even more calmness and satisfaction in your dogs, especially after meals, once they get larger parts that require real work and result in more satiety.

    Check out craisgslist, kajiji, FreeCycle or one of the other R/R/R websites or lists for a cheap or free freezer.

    Have you started working The Lis List for raw sourcing ideas?
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    nbloch64

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    Re: Wrong type of meat??

    Post  nbloch64 on Wed Jul 22, 2009 6:03 pm

    I did check out those websites and joined a local FreeCycle group (membership pending). I have not found anything free, but I am also looking for an energy efficient freezer so I am betting it needs to be purchased. I haven't worked the Lis List yet, but will focus on that next.

    I have noticed a more stable Nugget with raw food - she is part border collie / chessie so she is high energy to begin with! Jedi, on the other hand seems to be really low energy, but when he goes out to play and walk, he is full of it. I am battling something with allergies (hopefully not more serious) with him right now. I got a very disturbing message from my vet in response to my questions on his skin condition and the raw diet. I already researched a few other alternatives and found what looks to be a nice holistic vet. I have an appointment scheduled tomorrow with them and am not looking back in that regard!

    Thanks for all your help!

    steviesun

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    Re: Wrong type of meat??

    Post  steviesun on Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:05 am

    Giselle, there's competition for the well raised ox heart, liver and kidney in this household! I draw the line at tripe but my stepmother tells me that tripe is lovely and that she wishes anyone else in the household would eat it. But ox heart cooked in the crock pot and then roasted for a little while makes lovely roast and lovely sliced in sandwiches.

    Nicola it can be helpful to get to know other local people in real life as well as online. But to really keep the costs down working both is the best plan.
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    Giselle

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    Re: Wrong type of meat??

    Post  Giselle on Thu Jul 23, 2009 12:54 pm

    nbloch64 wrote:Jedi, on the other hand seems to be really low energy, but when he goes out to play and walk, he is full of it. I am battling something with allergies (hopefully not more serious) with him right now. I got a very disturbing message from my vet in response to my questions on his skin condition and the raw diet.
    Thanks for all your help!

    If he is on Benedryl or Pred, both can be affecting him physically and mentally.
    Benedryl can make a dog act sleepy or lethargic, and Pred has many many side effects, some dangerous and irreversible;
    http://www.nativeremedies.com/petalive/articles/use-of-prednisone-in-dogs.shtml
    http://www.lowchensaustralia.com/HEALTH/benadryl.htm

    In the case of itching/scratching in a dog, the triggers may be environmental rather dietary - look to reducing/eliminating the contact and use of household and personal cleansers, fragrances for both humans and dogs. chemicals in carpets, fabrics and furniture can be problem, as can yard treatments and mold, mildew, pollen and spores.
    In a sensitized dog, one trigger may become many, as in a domino effect.
    Pred, since it depresses the dog's own immune system, can ultimately cause more problems than it solves.
    http://www.k9web.com/dog-faqs/medical/canine-allergies.html

    These meds are just symptomatic bandaids, they won't cure the dog.

    A species appropriate raw diet helps the body by strengthening it and helping it heal all systems, including the immune system. But it cannot cure a dog either - and the additives in kibble and the triggers in the environment that makes a dog itch can take weeks to flush from his system so that you see a change.

    One other thing I would suggest, well a few - don't feed processed treats or people food. A sensitive dog can also react to the enhancements in meat - you know to avoid them like the plague.
    Another thing that people report is that a few dogs will react to the corn or soy fed to commercially raised meats. The alternative there is to feed grass raised or pastured meats, not 'organic', as organic soy and corn is still soy and corn and is not species appropriate for poultry or ruminants. Wild caught meats, like venison and other hunted critters are an option, too.

    If you are supping with a Fish Body oil, like Salmon, which is a great idea, you want to be sure that it has no plant oils - like soy (vite E is often soy derived) - or other additives. In the case of itching/scratching problems, using Salmon or Fish Body oil in therapeutic doses is a great idea.

    You'll want to check out the archives at rawfeeding and raw chat, these are frequent subjects for discussion;
    http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/msearch?query=Chris+fish+body+therapeutic&submit=Search&charset=UTF-8
    http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawChat/msearch?query=Chris+fish+therapeutic&submit=Search&charset=UTF-8
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    nbloch64

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    Re: Wrong type of meat??

    Post  nbloch64 on Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:42 pm

    I took Jedi to a new holistic vet this morning and was overall very pleased. She checked for mites and he is clean. She believes it is a combination of allergies and detox from the kibble and vaccines. She has provided me with some homeopathic remedies to help clear up his symptoms and detox his system. She also recommended some minerals like kelp and alfalfa. She is a big proponent of raw diets, which was such a relief to hear as the last vet denounced it. She said he looks great otherwise and to keep up with the raw diet.

    I will check out these additional links. I have been searching around on the forums and groups for fish oil and supplement related articles. I have tried fish oil in the past and neither dogs liked it. I can always move to capsule form, but would rather supplement through feeding raw fish and sardines.

    I am hoping that I will get in touch with the local co-op and begin stockpiling grass fed meats, as you suggested.

    Thank you everyone for the support and suggestions!
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    Giselle

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    Re: Wrong type of meat??

    Post  Giselle on Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:04 pm

    nbloch64 wrote:She has provided me with some homeopathic remedies to help clear up his symptoms and detox his system.
    She also recommended some minerals like kelp and alfalfa.
    I can always move to capsule form, but would rather supplement through feeding raw fish and sardines.

    I am hoping that I will get in touch with the local co-op and begin stockpiling grass fed meats, as you suggested.

    Thank you everyone for the support and suggestions!

    You'll want to go to CHP and TAV for more knowledge about classical homeopathy and vaccine damage;
    http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ClassicalHomeopathyPets/
    http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/TruthAboutVaccines/

    I have a friend who is taking Madga's CH courses and is now a client, both for her and 2 of her dogs. She is having a major change in her problems with migraines and is seeing great results with each of her dogs, too.

    Kelp and alfalfa are plants - they aren't appropriate supps for a carnivore, and can irritate Jedi's already sensitized systems. Kelp contains iodine which can depress the thyroid. Not something you want to have happen.
    http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/msearch?query=kelp+iodine&submit=Search&charset=UTF-8
    http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawChat/msearch?query=kelp+iodine&submit=Search&charset=UTF-8
    http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/rawfeeding/msearch?query=alfalfa&submit=Search&charset=UTF-8
    http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/RawChat/msearch?query=alfalfa&submit=Search&charset=UTF-8

    If there's a question of thyroid function, you don't want to mess around, get a blood test, eval and DX from Dr Jean Dodds, the world's foremost authority;
    http://www.hemopet.org/files/2009%20NewThyroid%20Panel%20Notification%20Ltr.pdf
    On the page is a very informative relevant and cutting edge audio hypothyroidism info clip by Dr Dodds as well as linkys to the test forms and tips (bottom of page).
    A couple other linkys about hypothyroidism;
    http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/clinicalsignscaninehypothyroidism.htm
    http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/behaviorandthyroid.htm
    http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/InterviewDrDoddsAndJoanneCarson.htm

    Unless you can feed primarily deep sea oily fish &/or grass fed or wild caught meats, Fish Body oil supping is a good plan. Caps or liquid is fine, however the dog will eat it.
    Couple linkys;
    http://timberwolforganics.com/pet-omega-oils
    http://www.icelandpure.com/salmon_oil.htm
    http://www.grizzlypetproducts.com/salmon_oil/salmon_oil.html

    Great, YQW!
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    nbloch64

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    Re: Wrong type of meat??

    Post  nbloch64 on Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:45 pm

    Thanks for all those links. I put in requests to join more groups so I can access those links too. I read the articles on thyroid as well. I will call my vet and discuss the full thyroid panel to put my mind at ease on that front as well.

    Jedi is currently diagnosed with allergies and here are the recommendations for homeopathy and supplements:

    Natural Path, Si Miao San, 100g
    BioPreparation F2+ (this is the algae supplement)
    Great Life eNZYmes Pro+
    Homeopathic for allergy/histamine/cutis
    Homeopathic for detox protocol and it says Hepar comp/Solidago/Thyreoidea comp

    Nugget went in today for a limp and I believe she either has a problem with her hip implant or a torn soaz:

    Feldene 6mg anti-inflammatory
    Methocarbamol (Robaxin) for muscle relaxant
    L-Carnitine 1000mg twice a day
    Co Q10: 15mg once a day

    The vet that Jedi saw of course recommended the probiotics and F2+ for Nugget too.

    I just want both of them healthy and I am trying to do it through their diet, but I have so many recommendations from different people and I read articles that refute all these things. The article in the vet office about the F2+ said that animals are normally drinking out of water holes that already contain algae and get certain minerals from those, which is why it is important to provide them in the diet. Jedi has been going outside and eating weeds and tree leaves lately too, which the vet said may be a sign that he isn't quite getting all the nutrients he needs from the raw food. She was completely supportive of the raw diet, but said he may need a few extra things.

    I am so lost! I just want the best for them. I hope this co-op works out (not emailing me back yet) so I can look into providing them with meat that is from grass-fed animals.
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    nbloch64

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    Re: Wrong type of meat??

    Post  nbloch64 on Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:46 pm

    Nugget is also suppose to get Pepcid once a day to help her stomach with the anti-inflammatories.
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    nbloch64

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    Re: Wrong type of meat??

    Post  nbloch64 on Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:36 pm

    Just picked up some Grizzly Salmon oil to try tonight with the dogs and I scheduled a full thyroid panel on Saturday for Jedi. I hope it comes out well and this turns out to be seasonal allergies and detox from the kibble.
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    Giselle

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    Re: Wrong type of meat??

    Post  Giselle on Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:33 pm

    I hate to be cynical, but a good motto to keep in mind is; "Follow The Money".

    Many (most?) well meaning vets, holistic or otherwise, sell products. They wouldn't be good business people if they also didn't promote/prescribe those products.

    How much money would all these peoples be making if everyone fed a simple, healthful, minimally processed species appropriate raw diet?

    Most dogs, unless there is something seriously wrong with them, or have had a course of antibiotics, don't need digestive enzymes or probiotics. You want to be sure that the enzymes have pancreatin, a meat digesting enzyme and that the probiotics are enteric coated at the least and are given away from meals. Products produced for pets are often much more expensive and have less of the active ingredients in them than do comparable human products.

    Grizzly Salmon oil is a good product. AFAIK, it only has a bit of rosemary as a preservative. some people has reported that different products work better for their dogs, you might want to try a few different ones before settling on one.

    I've read that combos of homeopathic remedies, given frequently, in a 'everything but the kitchen sink' kinda way, can do harm - I don't know much about CH, but do trust the sources of my information.
    This stuff, Si Miao San, sounds like Chinese Herbal medicine to me.
    http://www.acuatlanta.net/miao-capsules-p-46322.html

    http://www.bayho.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=311337&Store_Code=BH&search=solidago&offset=&filter_cat=&PowerSearch_Begin_Only=&sort=&range_low=&range_high=
    http://www.zooscape.com/cgi-bin/maitred/GreenCanyon/questp418726
    http://www.bayho.com/p/311203.html
    http://www.pets4homeopathy.com/products.html
    http://olivegreendog.com/great-life-enzymes-pro.html
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    nbloch64

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    Re: Wrong type of meat??

    Post  nbloch64 on Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:48 pm

    Everything seems to be clearing up nicely. The scabs are all but gone, but I am also awaiting the thyroid panel results.

    I placed an order today from Icelandpure for sardine and anchovie oil and wild salmon oil. I will finish out the homeopathy products and I have discontinued feeding chicken to Jedi. Hopefully the combination of all these things will help keep him clear and healthy. I am not going to give them the probiotics or kelp supplements.

    Thanks for all the info!
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    Heather

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    Re: Wrong type of meat??

    Post  Heather on Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:59 pm

    nbloch64 wrote:Jedi has been going outside and eating weeds and tree leaves lately too, which the vet said may be a sign that he isn't quite getting all the nutrients he needs from the raw food. She was completely supportive of the raw diet, but said he may need a few extra things.

    I am so lost! I just want the best for them.

    Jedi is eating those things because a wolf/dog by nature is opportunistic. He's not lacking anything by eating a species appropriate raw diet. My one complaint with holistic vets is they want to throw supplements at everything until your poor dog is taking more pills than a 90 year old woman. Holistic doesn't mean pro-raw OR more educated.

    Why discontinuing chicken? I missed the part on why you think it is an allergy.


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    nbloch64

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    Re: Wrong type of meat??

    Post  nbloch64 on Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:57 pm

    He was on kibble when the sores began and my old vet indicated that he may have developed a protein source allergy. So, I was sick of trying to find good kibbles because that statement itself is contradictory. I switched him over to raw and he was on antibiotics and antihistamines for several weeks, which cleared up the sores. During that time, he was only ingesting chicken and I continued to give him chicken while he and my other dog became accustom to their new raw diet. His sores came back very quickly once he finished the antibiotics and he began itching and biting. I took him to a new vet and she put him on some homeopathic remedies and I was also able to switch him over to a new protein source, pork. His itching and biting subsided and he was off chicken for several days. I gave him some chicken for bone content and within 12 hours he began itching and biting again. I have not given him chicken since then (about 3 days ago) and his itching and biting has subsided once more.

    I don't know if it is all coincidence or if he is in deed allergic to chicken. I will finish up the homeopathic remedies and once he is done with that, it will be only the raw diet with occasional egg, sardines and daily salmon oil or sardine/anchovy oil in his meals. I also ordered some of micro-tek shampoo to help with his skin. I am awaiting a call from his vet with the results of his thyroid panel from Saturday.

    Overall, I do like this new vet better than the last one. I am not sure if she is the right way to go, but the last vet did not support the raw diet and tried to convince me that Iams and Purina dog food are appropriate and healthy and designer kibbles are nothing more than designer.
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    Kelly
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    Re: Wrong type of meat??

    Post  Kelly on Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:04 pm

    Sorry to hear about the possible chicken allergy! Sad Hopefully you can find a good beef/pork/lamb/etc source and never have to feed chicken again! Poor itchy dog.


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    nbloch64

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    Re: Wrong type of meat??

    Post  nbloch64 on Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:55 am

    Thank you. Jedi is doing pretty good and the itching and biting are very minimal. He and Nugget enjoyed their first batch of green tripe and organ meat this morning - I had to cut it up outside! My bottle of micro-tek shampoo arrived this morning too so I will probably wash him soon. He is eating pork, beef and tried some lamb the other day, which went over very well. I will be ordering cases of meat within the next week and really stock-piling the freezer!! Smile

    Jedi's thyroid panel came back as normal! YAY! I just brushed him and he is doing well. The vet said it may take a while for the homeopathic meds to do the trick, but he is doing better than he was.

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