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    First of many questions to come...

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    gothickornchic

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    First of many questions to come...

    Post  gothickornchic on Tue Oct 27, 2009 2:34 pm

    LOL I've got a ton of questions but I'll just ask them as I remember them Smile
    I'm starting to switch my chi's from prepared raw (Nature's Variety, Primal, and Stella & Chewy's) to home-made raw (just meat bought from the store). So far today, I've cut up and portioned out some chicken gizzards and a cornish hen. I had talked to Kelly (Hi Kelly-I'm lilbabyvenus from chi-ppl) and she said she goes by percentages of 80% muscle meat, 10% bone, 5% liver, and 5% other organs. I've been reading up on a few other sites I found on google, and I'm seeing a percentage balance of 60% RMB, 15% veggies, and 25% meat and organs. So I'm kinda confused. I've been feeding what I've heard from Kelly (and also from a few other people), but I've never heard of these other things before. Can anyone help me out? This is still so new to me. But I think I'd save so much money if I could just figure this out instead of buying all this premade stuff.
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    Heather

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    Location : O'Fallon, MO

    Re: First of many questions to come...

    Post  Heather on Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:10 pm

    The other diet is called BARF. It's based on the assumption that wolves eat the stomach contents of their prey which they do not, so pureed vegetables are included. Totally species inappropriate for a CARNIVORE. You want to listen to Kelly. I have several hand picked links on my blog in the getting started section that you will want to read thru for more info. I have spent 3 years reviewing and compiling this list and they are the best, hands down. It will save you from reading all the inaccurate and conflicting info out there.


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    gothickornchic

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    Re: First of many questions to come...

    Post  gothickornchic on Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:13 pm

    Thank you so much. I'm so paranoid that I'm going to skip out on giving them something.
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    Lindsey

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    Re: First of many questions to come...

    Post  Lindsey on Sun Nov 01, 2009 1:04 pm

    Now see me personally, I add vegetables and fruits. Not the 40% or so that Billinghurst called for but I do add them. I cook or purree them first.

    I do this because-

    A-I don't feed whole prey. If I can do a whole diet of whole prey then I would add nothing to it because it would be complete. But I don't and feeding gutted, skinned and deheaded meat isn't the same as whole prey and I won't pretend it is.

    B-My dog and many others I see will eat fruits and vegetables if given the chance. I go to a dog park that is huge, open and full of natural wildlife because it's a forest preserve. Dogs graze all the time there. They pick berries off of trees and eat certain plants habitually

    C-While I do believe dogs are carnivores I believe they are opportunistic ones that have evolved being a scavenger and eating all they can find, when they can find it. They will eat fruits, vegetables and carbs if given the chance in the wild and have done so for a long long time

    D-Most dogs do eat the stomach contents of small prey, those are too small to shake out. So a rabbit, vole, mouse, rat, squirrel, chipmunk etc. are going to be eaten whole. So while they might shake out stomach contents of large prey that is not done normally with small ones which means the stomach content would be eaten. Also keep in mind that the stomach is still eaten so any content that remains would be consumed.

    So those are the short and sweet version of why I add vegetables, fruits and even some carbs into my raw diet. Not a ton and I don't loose sleep if they don't get any but they do get fed them and I personally wouldn't do a raw diet for dogs without them

    I would suggest that if you choose not to that you do add fresh green tripe.
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    gothickornchic

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    Re: First of many questions to come...

    Post  gothickornchic on Sun Nov 01, 2009 1:17 pm

    Both of my chi's will eat most fruits and vegatables that are given to them. Would it be ok to incorporate them by using them as treats throughout the day? Like slices of fruit? Or a peice of carrot?
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    Lindsey

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    Re: First of many questions to come...

    Post  Lindsey on Sun Nov 01, 2009 1:20 pm

    My friend does that Very Happy

    She has one day a week that her dog gets a slop made of organs, fruit, vegetables and egg.

    Then for the rest of the week she uses veggies and fruits for training treats because her dog loves them and they are pretty low calorie. Which is nice when you do a lot of training Smile
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    gothickornchic

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    Re: First of many questions to come...

    Post  gothickornchic on Sun Nov 01, 2009 1:24 pm

    Well that's good. We're working on a lot of basics with our second that we just got about a month ago. He was 5 months old when we got him, but they had done no training what-so-ever with him yet.
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    yassy

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    Re: First of many questions to come...

    Post  yassy on Sun Nov 08, 2009 11:39 am

    I personally don't feed veg/fruits in part of diet.I follow 80(meat)-10(bone)-10(organ) guideline of raw feeding.

    Palette loves tropical fruits like mango,papaya etc if given chance to munch on it but it is only when we give as tiny bits like finger nail size and that is it.She hates acidic fruits.

    Meat nutrient that maybe not being able to provide what veg could will be just chlorophyll,and maybe fiber.By feeding variety of protein source,you can cover almost all veg can provide.

    steviesun

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    Re: First of many questions to come...

    Post  steviesun on Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:26 pm

    I'm with you Yassy. I do feed tripe when I can get it, plus whole rabbit, but neither with any great frequency. Bone provides fiber in a carnivore's diet. BUT some dogs do seem to do better when there is some fruit/veg slop in their diets. I can't explain it but it is what I have heard reported.
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    Heather

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    Re: First of many questions to come...

    Post  Heather on Thu Nov 26, 2009 5:37 pm

    Yes, dogs are opportunistic but they don't NEED plant matter in their diet. Incorporating it into the diet (not talking about occasional treats) can actually be harmful as they do not produce amylase to break down the carbohydrates and cellulose. It forces the pancreas to work extra hard to break all that down.

    Just because they eat the stomach contents indirectly of small prey doesn't mean that it's good for them. It's just something that gets inevitably ingested. It means nothing.

    And my dogs LOVE cat crap but just because they eat it every chance they get and enjoy it doesn't mean I am going to add it into their diet.

    Tripe is just stomach. I don't feed it. Haven't for all 4 years of raw feeding and I bet atleast 90% of raw feeders don't. It's not a "feed vegetables or feed tripe" type of deal. The only reason tripe is pushed so much is because the companies processing it (it's actually a WASTE product from the meat industry) saw a great, cheap deal and marketed it as a miracle food for dogs. It's not. It's just another part of the whole prey puzzle. If you feed it great and if you don't then great.

    Meat, bone and organ. That's all that's needed. Really.


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    Lindsey

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    Re: First of many questions to come...

    Post  Lindsey on Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:45 pm

    You know, enough accurate unbiased studies have not really been done into raw feeding or what is the healthiest way to go about feeding raw. Because of that, I believe making flat out statements like "Meat, bone and organ. That's all that's needed. Really." is not only naive but also dangerous. You don't know that for a fact, none of us do. We may see positive results feeding a certain kind of raw but that doesn't mean it's ever a one size fits all solution or the only right thing.

    If it can't even be said for a fact one way or the other that altering an animal is "good" or "bad" and that's been studied numerous amount of times I don't know how any of us can even begin to act like all is known about what dogs should always eat point blank

    Most of what raw is biased off of is the natural eating and hunting instincts in wolves, dogs and other canidids. To then dismiss the observations of a dogs evolution through scavenging refuses and evolving to not only survive off of that but to thrive, to dismiss a canines over developed sweet tooth that urged then to eat fresh sweet berries, to dismiss the stomach contents of small prey that they evolved eating as being nothing is so one sided I can't even comprehend it.

    I don't care one way or another what you feed your dogs but making blanket statements for all dogs about what they need or don't need with nothing but anecdotal information and half facts does everyone a disservice.

    I use anecdotal information all the time, but I don't state it as a fact and I don't believe it should ever be a one size fits all solution.

    I will say it again, I don't BELIEVE feeding a diet of cleaned, gutted and processed carcasses with some organ thrown in is complete and I do personally believe that thinking so is burying your head in the sand. Is it better than most kibble? Maybe. But ideal? I don't believe so.
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    Timothea

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    Re: First of many questions to come...

    Post  Timothea on Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:27 pm

    So Lindsey, what DO you believe to be an ideal diet?
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    Lindsey

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    Re: First of many questions to come...

    Post  Lindsey on Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:56 am

    One that they catch themselves.
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    Timothea

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    Re: First of many questions to come...

    Post  Timothea on Fri Jan 29, 2010 8:17 pm

    For my dog, that would be my cats. I'm just not fast enough to catch anything else with her, and it's illegal to let her off leash here... So the next best thing then, would maybe be the prey model style that is often espoused as the best diet, albeit anecdotally?
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    Lindsey

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    Re: First of many questions to come...

    Post  Lindsey on Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:24 pm

    Well, the next best thing in my opinion would be whole prey model along with the ability to forage ruffage as they choose
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    Timothea

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    Re: First of many questions to come...

    Post  Timothea on Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:20 am

    I'm curious....
    How do you feed your dogs then? Do you have a lot of open space and just let them out to hunt every day? Do you know what they eat on a given day? I'm sure you've seen what they catch occasionally, but do you ever worry that they aren't catching something? What about when they get older and can't catch something anymore, will you set up an enclosed space with live prey for them, or kill the animal for them to eat?

    Very different from what I could do, but if I had the space....
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    Lindsey

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    Re: First of many questions to come...

    Post  Lindsey on Sat Jan 30, 2010 7:41 pm

    No, I don't feed them what I consider the ideal diet (though, I do believe there is no universal "ideal" diet and this is just what I would strive for) though I wish I could. I feed them mostly frankenprey with a wide variety of fruits, vegetables and carb along with any foraging they do at the places I take them off leash.

    I would love for my dogs to get all whole prey but I have neither the land to let them hunt nor the money to deal with ordering online. They would fail badly at hunting themselves and it's just not a possibility at the time.

    BUT I will be getting a Koolie as my next dog and fully plan on taking him boar hunting with my friends Dogo and will hopefully be able to have him on a fully whole prey diet through Internet ordering. I also will be getting a COO Saluki after him, if all goes well, that I will take and allow to hunt the majority of his own food.

    So yes, I wasn't talking about what I do but rather what I believe the ideal diet and situation would be for them.

    But in reference to your questions if I was doing it the dogs would more than likely be taken out to hunt, their prey taken and frozen to avoid any parasites and then given to them. That way I would know what they eat. I also don't see myself ever not having the ability to know what they are eating because they wouldn't be off leash without me and I don't believe anything more than a mouse and vole would escape my attention.

    But your idea of a compound sounds heavenly

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